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Is the word 'Pussy' in the context used by Zach Young and others on the LC demeaning to women?
Submitted by Ron Logan on August 28, 2007 - 12:17pm.
So not to derail the converstation Stephen Maynard office opening on local elections I decided to start this thread to explore the use of the word 'pussy' as 'fighting words' on that thread by members of the LC.
Thoughts?
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take The Ambivalent Sexism Inventory
After allowing some time to let things cool down on this thread I thought it would be good to respond as intelligently as possible.
I am beginning to question if there are any feminists or persons who challenge sexism on this (or any) site enough. What I mean is that there are clearly such people here but could we challenge it more? And how? Should I continue if no one speaks up?
Challenging sexism doesn't constitute a personal attack by any definition. For myself the only time I engaged in a personal attack was by calling Zach Young a sexist pig other than the rest of my challenge that part was on a more emotional level and was rude but not in derogatory manner such as his remarks.
But I was not surprised at what Richard Wakefield, Trev McNaughton, Jeremy McNaughton (brothers?), and Geoff Bardwell wrote (except perhaps the latter because of the Women’s Studies background expressed). Their responses are typical examples in many ways to the kind of arguments that people who are not conscious about sexism in language use.
“It only has a negative meaning of a female part if you want it to.”
No one with intelligence would think that calling Steve Maynard a pussy for not debating him in public is not in the context of cowardice and further that cowardice is not a negative attribute. Tying cowardice to womanhood is a sexist use of the language.
‘Perhaps he meant scardy cat instead of what most people I know take it as’ that attitude really insulted my intelligence and I personlly still find it extremely disturbing that a member of the IWW would stand by such justification.
“Mainly that the word 'pussy' isn't anti-women for everyone, and that the root of the word used in that context has nothing to do with women.”
Yeah and ‘nigger’ isn’t racist to the KKK. Of course this is can be 'absurd' to you as it doesn’t affect you personally: you can walk away anytime you like unlike others.
I have never challenged the moderation of Jeremy on the site but instead his (what I’m assuming) are his personal beliefs on the subject.
“But what do I know, I use the term pussy all the time, I also use pimp, fuck, ass, shit, bitch, damn, (and apparently I'm also an advocate for rape, so says IMC London...).. I use them as an effective means to get a rise out of someone, exactly like the given situation.”
This also insults my intelligence. Fuck, ass, and shit are swear words that have no derogatory meaning and anyone with a brain knows this. Pimp (male exploiter of women in the sex trade), bitch and pussy are known derogatory terms pertaining to the female sex.
An interesting example of what is missing could be nigger and/or faggot. These are also derogatory terms based on race and sexual preference and one would hope they not be tolerated language to anyone who considers themselves decent in this day and age. Why are bitch and pussy acceptable to ‘get a rise out of someone’ as opposed to ‘nigger’ and/or ‘faggot’ (for example)? Do you use this language at in public, at work, or with your friends and family? Why and why not?
“Didn’t say I thought the subject matter was trivial, I said I thought your post was trivial.”
Since I am the poster of the subject matter and that is the content of what I have posted, then logically the post is the subject matter and in your words trivial.
I didn’t believe everything I learned in Women’s Studies either but I am curious: what did you learn regarding the subject matteral I brought up? If Zach had said ‘your being a girl’ instead of ‘being a pussy’ would that be any different to you?
I want to end by saying something which I think is really important:
I am by no means trying (although I did fail at this by the sexist pig remark) to say people in their entirety are sexist beings. Nor does being a heterosexual white male automatically make you sexist yet one must understand that if they are in that category they are not only not effected by sexism but they also gain from it willingly or unwilling.
This is a sexist society which we were all raised in but it is important to challenge ourselves, others and our society in order to make changes. This is what I try to do. Many of the questions I put out there I have, and continue, to ask myself.
I encourage everyone to find the courage and take The Ambivalent Sexism Inventory at Understanding Prejudice.org
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/
according to wikipedia and websters
According to Wikipedia and Websters, the word pussy (when used as a synonym of coward) has nothing to do with vaginas or cats.
Here is the part of Wikipedia where they discuss the roots of the word. And a quote:
Also, a link to the Websters 1913 and 1828 editions definitions of the word pussy. The 1913 edition says "see pursy" and the 1828 edition just defines as "PUS''SY, a. Properly, inflated, swelled; hence, fat, short and thick; and as persons of this make labor in respiration, the word is used for short breathed."
So etymologically speaking at least, using the word "pussy" in place of coward has nothing to do with women or cats.
Jeremy
I feel we're getting off topic
Huh Geoff?
I am quite confused. I wrote ‘Even ‘scaredy cat’ can be a stereotyping reference to feminine qualities suggesting weakness’. So no: cats don’t = women.
For someone who has graduated from Women’s Studies it is an interesting time for you to pipe up. I learned in first year Women’s Studies historical language uses of the terms ‘pussy’ ‘sissy’ and others having roots in enforcing a violent patriarchal system. Good to see what is important to you and glad to see the forced sex trade is funny to you in a serious conversation between people. Very respectful of you.
Jeremy:
In the next sentence of the wikipeda article it states:
“The word pussy can also be used in a derogatory sense to refer to a male who is not considered sufficiently masculine (see Gender role). When used in this sense, it carries the implication of being easily fatigued, weak or cowardly.
Men dominated by women (particularly their partners or spouses and at one time referred to as 'Hen-pecked') can be referred to as pussy-whipped (or simply whipped in slightly more polite society or media).” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy#Weakness
As for Webster's: old dictionary definitions are written by old white men not too interested in feminism or women's studies. Dictonaries are not history books and certainly not through a feminist lens.
Here is a link to an article in women's journal called Pussy This, Pussy That.
By denying the social group of women comment I am referring to your stance that an attack on a social group of individuals doesn’t constitute a personal attack.
This too is an interesting topic of discussion which I will start a thread about:
Since personal attacks are not tolerated (limited free speech), does language that is demeaning to a social groups of individuals constitute a personal attack even if they are not members of this website.
Can you really be suggesting that you believe Zach Young was calling Steve Maynard a scaredy cat? You your self wrote “I wouldn't expect a candidate for public office to be using the word pussy like that” but now you claim you don’t know what he meant by it. That makes no sense and as the originator of this thread I believe this is getting off the topic of the original intent. I would ask you politely to show the respect you ask of others.
I don’t wish to get into the possible different uses of the word but the use of it in the clear context in another thread. I believe you are derailing this thread and ask for another moderator(s) to please decide if this is the case.
scardy cat
I always thought scardy cat refered to someone who is as easily frightened by small simple things, the same way cats are (I have two of them, and both jump two feet in the air, if I move my foot an inch as they walk by).
but what do I know, I use the term pussy all the time, I also use pimp, fuck, ass, shit, bitch, damn, (and aparently I'm also an advocate for rape, so says IMC london...).. I use them as an effective means to get a rise out of someone, exactly like the given situation.
the point being, people have to look at the source of the comment, as well as the context. If you decide to let some comment get the best of you and start a riot, then what good is it doing? the person will still use the word, and now he knows how to fire you up.
as far as I saw it, jeremy moderated the comment, gave zach a warning (as seen fit by the policies of the site). are you asking for zach (or anyone that uses such terms) to be banished from the site? Do you want moderators to secretly apply word filters and change posts and comments that contain words that might be seen somewhat offensive to a peticular group? maybe we could spread that to the whole internet.
I don't get the point of this thread at all. Its clear that "pussy" can be demeaning to women, its also clear that it was taken care of by a moderator. now you're attacking that moderator? What are you trying to accomplish with this?
.
[#londoncommonsnet] /me is 1337Questions are not attacks
“If somebody wants to sound like an ignorant prick, that's their choice. And everybody else on the site is able to point out that they used the word "pussy" inappropriately, because they have the same privileges to publish.”
Geoff: I was engaged in a serious conversation about a topic I started which lead to discussion about the word ‘pimp’ and your response made obvious light of it by your own admission. Sorry I thought you believed the subject material was funny, clearly you thought it was trivial. (Makes me wonder why your even in Women’s Studies anyway?)
Jeremy: My point is that pussy isn’t anti-women to everyone but it is clearly when used to reference cowardice and clearly in the case of how Zach Young used it.
Again: you wrote “I wouldn't expect a candidate for public office to be using the word pussy like that” but now you claim you don’t know what he meant by it.
Trev McNaughton:
I am not attacking the moderator (is he the moderator or somebody who commented on the thread I started which even he said anyone on this site has the right to do). No where have I ever personally attacked him and questioning ones beliefs is not an attack
By getting a 'rise out of someone' (attack?) I hope you realize that means hurting them in ways you yourself cannot be. Why can you get a rise out of someone but what I'm writing is an attack? Do your experience sexism or racism in your life?
I never have suggested that Zach Young should be removed from the site and won’t, but as Jeremy said (although does seem to act it) users have the right to challenge such comments they find offensive.
Comments about filters and such can be found in the new thread.
http://londoncommons.net/node/4665
To Geoff, Jeremy, and Trev: Do you find the use of the word ‘pussy’ by Zach Young degrading to women? Yes or no?
stated before
I stated that it could obviously be degrading to women, but in that context I didn't feel it was an attack on women, it was clearly an attack on Stephen Maynard.
but what do I know, I'm just a white heterosexual male.. right?
.
[#londoncommonsnet] /me is 1337lol
lol
A./ I didn't say I thought
A./ I didn't say I thought the subject matter was trivial, I said I thought your post was trivial.
B./ I don't believe everything I learn in a women's studies course. I once learned that all heterosexual sex is rape (coming from a noteable feminist writer: Katherine McKennon), I disagree completely with this statement.
C./ To answer your question, no. If he said, women are stupid because they are weak and pussies, then I would say yes that statement is degrading to women.
sorry
Sorry Ron. Like I said, I'm not discussing this with you anymore because it's gotten ridiculous. Maybe re-read some of my earlier comments if you want more answers.
Jeremy
you asked
Ron,
You asked "Is the word 'Pussy' in the context used by Zach Young and others on the LC demeaning to women?'
I provided some answers, mainly that the word 'pussy' isn't anti-women for everyone, and that the root of the word used in that context has nothing to do with women. Yes, the old dictionaries were written by white men. But that's still where the word came from. It's a word with a bunch of different meanings.
I'm sorry it's not the answer you were looking for. But simply because the answer isn't what you're looking for doesn't mean it's off topic. Regardless, I'm done arguing with you over the meanings of words.
For the record, I don't use the word 'pussy'.
Jeremy
Forced sex trade funny to
Forced sex trade funny to me? I am sorry.... I must've misread my post because I didn't say anything about finding forced sex trade funny. I did, however, use the word pimpin' in reference to your reply. Your response was pimping, meaning: petty or trivial. Check your dictionary for further clarification.
The fact that I pointed out your argument "cats=women" was not because I thought you were suggesting that cats were indeed women; but rather, you used that argument to make your previous argument stronger, hence the relationship between cats and women being read in your argument.
In the context used...another context=another thread (please)
The question is not the definition of ‘pussy’ but the context of which it was used by Zach and Rob Hepburn reply (admitting joking) that ‘them’s fighting words’.I though it would be interesting to explore why nobody challenged the use of the word in the context it was clearly used. Even ‘scaredy cat’ can be a stereotyping reference to feminine qualities suggesting weakness but perhaps people without feminist history of language and awareness might not understand this. It’s easy not to get outraged when the term in its clear context here doesn’t affect your gender or sex. And I don’t think anyone on this site is in elementary school anymore.
Thanks Amelia Does, Matti Paquiz, and Ms Hilton for your serious thoughts on this subject. Reclaiming slang can be a double edged sword, but cannot be reclaimed by people outside of the affected group. ‘Pimp’ is a harmful reality for the hundreds of thousands of women enslaved in the global sex trade each year; yet to most North American youth it is a cool term. Should we accept that? Freedom of speech has its limits, even on this site containing to personal attacks, for good reason.
But is using a derogatory term not towards any one individual acceptable language?Example: Chamberlain was a pussy for not being more aggressive with the Nazis.Chamberlain is not a member of this site nor even alive anymore but the person(s) effected by this statement are women both as individuals and a collective group because they have been acquainted to weakness in comparison to males with such terminology.
Is an attack on a social group not in effect a personal attack at a large group of individuals? I find it intriguing that Jeremy McNaughton member of the IWW, a proud socialist organization, would deny the existence of social groups such as women by taking the same line of reasoning as of someone like Richard Wakefield on this issue.
This is an interesting conversation excluding the unaffected school children.
PURR!!!!
thanks for the pimpin'
thanks for the pimpin' response! I like Jeremy also did not know cats=women. Why wasn't I taught that at all during my undergrad in women's studies? Maybe I will learn about it in my MA or PhD... until then, thanks for the enlightening post!
so now i'm denying the existence of women.
Let me start by thanking you, Ron Logan, for stirring up some discussion about this issue.
I'll be the first to admit that I didn't know that references to cats are also references to women. You got me there.
But exactly where did I "deny the existence of social groups such as women"? I'm not lying: I grew up thinking the word pussy, when used in place of coward, was a reference to cats. My room mate grew up under the same impression. If both of us thought that way until we were in our mid twenties, there must be others.
Both my room mate and I recognize now, as adults, that most people understand the word pussy, when used in place of coward, to be a reference to the female genitals. But when reading or listening to other people's words, if they use the word "pussy" I try to remember that everyone comes from a different background, and they might not know how other people are taking the word. In other words, I try to be patient with people.
Unless Zach himself answers, it's impossible to know what his intention was. Did he mean to call Stephen a "scaredy cat" or did he mean "vagina"? I don't know. I did call him on it and then after his response a couple of days later I issued an official warning as a moderator.
Also, to do with your examples, I think there is a difference between calling Chamberlain a pussy and calling someone here in London a pussy (or any name). We're trying to provide a site here where people can express themselves however they choose, but when it comes to addressing other members of the community they must be respectful. If somebody wants to sound like an ignorant prick, that's their choice. And everybody else on the site is able to point out that they used the word "pussy" inappropriately, because they have the same privileges to publish. Just like you've done here. Now Zach is facing the consequences of using ignorant language by having his name associated with this discussion. That's life.
Jeremy
tell us what you think.
hello jeremy and richard.
the thread asks a question. so, why don't you answer it. give it a try.
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
I did answer it
That was my answer. It only has a negative meaning of a female part if you want it to. It could also just rightly mean a person is soft, like a kitten.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on
thanks rich
superb!
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
figured i did
I thought I did answer it, but I can be more specific. Most people I know take the word to mean vagina, and it is derogatory to women to most people. But some people might think the word means scaredy cat, so I try not to get outraged from the get-go.
I called Zachary on it in the thread, giving him time to explain himself. His explanation was calling his opponent(?) a different name. So Zach got himself a second civility warning.
Jeremy
thanks jer'.
excellent!
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
wanted
it seems like he wanted the warning, anyway.
(i wonder what happened to "THIS MAN")
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
So many slang words
With so many slang words, that have double/triple or more meanings, for human genitalia that any comment could be taken as an insult. Personally, if someone called me a pussy I'd thank them. I like young kittens. Playful, energetic, inquisitive, and happy all the time. Ah, to be that way...
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on
when i was a kid
When I was a kid and we used the word "pussy" on the playground at school, I always thought it was a reference to cats. It was pretty much synonymous with "scaredy cat".
I realize however, that this is not how most people take it.
Jeremy
thank you.
people need to care for the language they use to convey the point that they are making/attemptinig to make.
using misogynystic terminology is uncalled for. period.
Ron, since this site is public, and submitted content is of the public record, why don't you call out these "others" on the LC? i'm talking about names. you called out mr. young, why not the "others"? maybe another thread?
thanks for posting this.
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
not in good taste.... but whats new ?
The semantics of language is quite interesting.
Is it misogynystic ... yes but many controversial words have been co-opted as harmless slang. Take the term "pimp" .... it's a pimp this pimp that. Does the word have the same effect.... nope. How many people under the age of 25 realize the term pimp is negative and anti woman ? It's all about pimping out and up your crib and ride.
Using language which is demeaning to women is as racist as using language which demeans other cultures.
reclaiming slang
there's also the reclaiming of once-offensive and now questionably offensive words like: 'bitch'. in most cases the effect is dictated in the intended delivery (mr. young's intentions seemed clear -- to use the word in question to mean cowardly)
on a more grand scale, there is the case of "African American Vernacular English" or 'Ebony-Phonics", or reduced to its own slang term called "Ebonics". Lots of words in this urban dialect have taken on different definitions.
word up.
PEACEonTHEstreetsOFoldEAST... -mp
yes it is
I agree and I am glad you pointed this out.
However, this particular LC user should probably have privleges taken away or be simply ignored, seeing as he is just trying to cause trouble and piss off everyone.